• Psychobelpanorama_fish_eye
    11 days ago

    It's not a straw man though is it?
    I'm Aware that some folk in this place have skin in the game. Which is difficult. But I think our rather verbose landlord has largely got the right of it. Be whoever you are. That's fine. But that doesn't trump others voices and rights. Many women for various reasons want spaces to themselves. And didn't we just go through a period of time when we agreed that you have to listen clearly to what women are saying? There are solutions to be had but shouting women down isn't a good one.

    And I'll get my tin hat now, this is exactly the argument the left went big on. In large part, the working class don't give a fuck. I'm aware of my gross assumptions here. Addressing a point Tricky made about Reform fibs, immigration. But there it is. Handled really badly for years in that largely we ran away from the topic rather than trying to agree a solution that was to some degree workable and could tell a good story. I know merely mentioning it will get some people's backs up. That's my point.

  • trickylens
    11 days ago

    I previously thought that unisex toilets with self contained cubicles and us all being what we want to be, was the obvious EU solution to the northern Ireland problem of sectarian bog needs.

    Until I actually spoke to women about it.

    As a man, in forty years in using public spaces and facilities, I have been subject to inappropriate attention a small handful of times. Largely by other men. It, however, is a feature and consideration for women on every occasion that they are in public. It can range from inappropriate behaviour through to serious sexual assault, drugging, abduction, rape and murder.

    Until we fix that, I do not think it's appropriate to make a hideous situation for women worse. Of course I have a view on what forces are ensuring things are bad for women, and how they are pouring pressure on them to create the argument as part of destabilising society. But that doesn't change my position.

    Make women equal, and equally safe as men. Then we can talk about extending extra opportunity to biological males.

  • Mangetoutpanorama_fish_eye
    11 days ago

    It is. All right-thinking people want everyone to feel safe. Reduced safety is not what's being advocated.

    And as for listening to women, in AoNZ the majority of women don't care too much and haven't been fed the same level of culture war bs by Russian or whatever talking heads, so they just want violent men to be addressed rather than vulnerable people who want to use the toilet. Fear has been developed.

  • trickylens
    11 days ago

    Men largely feel safe. Women largely don't feel safe, and worse have little in the way of timely meaningful redress when under threat.

    What's the best next move?

  • Mangetoutpanorama_fish_eye
    11 days ago

    It's not to make a different group feel even less safe.

  • trickylens
    11 days ago

    Which is from many women's perspective, what you are trying to do.

    Can you remember recently, when Emma Raducanu was subject to stalking and harassment, and saw her assailant courtside? She broke down hiding herself behind the umpire's chair. If we imagine that for many women their bogs are the umpires chair. What you are saying is that in the interests of safety her assailant can follow her behind the umpires chair if they self identify as boyfriend.

    That is how women feel about it. In the interests of society (half of it, and 100% of the childbearing section) we need to address that reality...or perception if it is perception. But we cannot have such a section of society feeling unsafe in all circumstances. It is a disgusting blight on our society that has been perpetrated for at least fifty years in my first hand knowledge. It needs fixing. I think we should do something about it, then worry about edge cases.

  • Ingopanorama_fish_eye
    11 days ago

    JP would be fucking loving this.

  • Mangetoutpanorama_fish_eye
    11 days ago

    You are very selective in what you pay attention to. Because it's not how women here feel about it. Maybe ask yourself why.

    As I said, I'm not the right advocate.

  • trickylens
    11 days ago

    It is literally what women have told me. Why do you think women don't think that?

  • Mangetoutpanorama_fish_eye
    11 days ago

    It is literally what women have told me. As I have said. I'm not calling the women in your life liars. I'm saying their not-unreasonable fears have been stoked. As have certain attitudes among men.
    The trouble is that some men only believe women when it's confirming their biases.

  • trickylens
    11 days ago

    Quite. So it's groundless that women feel broadly unsafe with no meaningful redress?

  • Mangetoutpanorama_fish_eye
    10 days ago

    It's because of men, not trans people. Fear and hatred based on people's looks is bad. Othering groups to distract from class, race, gender issues is bad. You'd agree, right?

    The police and prosecutors need to change their attitudes and processes towards (among many other things) sexual assault. Putting trans people in the way of assaults, sexual and ordinary, is no kind of solution.

    And on the simple, pragmatic side, are you going to be enforcing the "doesn't look girly enough" rule which is, undeniably, fraught, and full of bigotry. At the very least, anyone arguing that it's simple is doing so in bad faith.

  • trickylens
    10 days ago

    Except I'm not doing those things.

    I'm saying that women are saying to me that they don't want a legitimate avenue for biological males to compromise their private spaces, because men without straightforward intentions will exploit it for their own purposes. As they do in other spheres, as a way to access and hurt women - like being a landlord, an employer, a stranger in a public place with access to women, a police officer...the list is endless. The experience of women is that men will use the opportunity presented by the access that this gives such men to women, to hurt and oppress them.

    When we can deal with the hurting and oppressing, then we can look at how we increase access to all groups. But I cannot overestimate the importance that I would attribute to this half of our society, entirely responsible for bringing new members of that society into the world, that have broadly been ignored or worse for fifty years.

    That's all. People can wear whatever clothes they want, love who they want (consensually), piss standing up, or sitting down. Whatever they want, for me. I don't think more or less of anyone. It's just people, being people, and I'm totally fine with it...I don't sexualise strangers, and I have absolutely no problem with someone pursuing whatever path they want...it genuinely means nothing to me (that is a positive, if you wish to look kindly on it). But I am not going to pretend that something that comes at further cost to already terrorised women denied equality and justice, is better for society on the basis of a niche view largely arising from the intended disenfranchisement and destabilisation of people.

    Rather than keep stamping out all those little fires, I am in favour of directly addressing those cunts with the petrol and matches, and solving the actual biggest problems facing society.

  • Mangetoutpanorama_fish_eye
    10 days ago

    Saying you aren't doing something is not the same as not doing it. I cannot and do not speak to the UK experience, of course, but in AoNZ there are no significant cases of trans people accessing ladies' toilets to assault them or scare them. The terf movement is significantly larger in the UK than here.

    We're clearly entrenched in our positions, so not much point in blundering on.

  • trickylens
    10 days ago

    As I say. I held a different opinion, until I actually spoke to women about it. This would be the opposite of entrenched. My view is that we should stop the big bleeds first. Ideally we can get round to much more stuff, but unfortunately the last decade or so has seen the direction of travel to be hurtling downhill, the wrong way.

  • Gurupanorama_fish_eye
    10 days ago

    Is it just me wondering why this is in “what’s amusing me” thread?

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