Doesn't all this become much simpler (though still some areas of complexity) as long as we are clear on the difference between sex and gender. Women's world cup is based on sex, so doesn't matter if you gender identify as a man, woman, cat, your sex determines whether you are eligible.
Complexity is still there when people have changed sex (hormones, operations etc), but it's a much smaller amount of complexity.
I am sure the above gets me on the naughty step.
This seems like the reasonable position to me. But is apparently "furthering a genocide".
You don't have to agree with every single trans activist, especially at the extremes, in the same way you don't have to parrot the anti-trans position.
The only highlight of an absolutely woeful game.
This is where I am too. Where I probably get into more trouble is that I don't agree with changing sex. I think we need to be much better in how we treat gender identity and gender fluidity, but I don't think it is right (or probably even possible) to change biological sex. As a largely liberal type of person that's not an easy position for me to take and the internet probably isn't the place to delve into it too much. I think here is quite an interesting place to discuss it though as I think on the whole this place does that quite well. I like to think that none of this changes the way I treat and respect people who I meet who have transitioned or changed gender identity, I certainly hope not.
It seems like England haven't got going yet, probably not helped by having Williamson, Mead, Kirby and part way through this game Walsh all missing through injury. That's a huge amount of top class talent and though the depth of the squad is very good these days it's still a big gap to fill. They have still won their games though.
I'm pretty much there too. I'm also a broad liberal, mostly pinkish but sometimes vivid crimson in colour. Generally, I'm happy for people to be whatever they want to be as long as it doesn't negatively impact anyone else, but I do struggle to get my head around the whole gender transitioning issue.
The mistake you’ve made there is confusing ‘the progressive position’ with ‘what Ben Shapiro says is the progressive position’.
Is Owen Jones representative of progressives? twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1512052347513544705
I have good news for you - no one is going to make you change sex. So there's really nothing for you to need to disagree with.
He is certainly representative of Owen Jones.
Nothing he said there can be read as saying that preventing biological males from participating in women’s sports is bigotry. He is pointing out that the issue is being weaponised (it is) and that people aren’t declaring themselves to be trans in order to cheat (which we should assume they generally are not).
He’s not, to my knowledge, particularly knowledgeable about sports. He’s not even sticking his toe into the questions about how persons born male may have permanent and unreversable advantages which mean that they shouldn’t be able to compete in certain, particularly elite, female sports. He’s just saying ‘stop using sport as a stick to beat trans people with’.
We’re in the age of Twitter. You can absolutely find ‘progressives’ who hold the position you have ascribed, even if those Owen Jones tweets were a swing and a miss… Just like you can find ‘conservatives’ who think trans people shouldn’t exist. Only one of those groups gets showered with Koch money and given a global platform by Murdoch though. Remember that when you ponder if the impression you’re getting of the ‘debate’ is an accurate one.
If anyone can bear to read properly thought-out articles by a trans person, rather than tweets, these two by Parker Molloy, whilst not being snappy, do try to lay out a fact or two, and explicitly recognise the complexity of it and accept that excluding trans athletes from things isn’t inherently bigoted.
Parker writes about media, not sport, but she is on top of this because the whole goddamn thing is about media, not sport.
With adults this is pretty much the case yes and though I don't agree with it I don't worry it. I do have some concerns about the way children are brought into the conversation.
That said, it can also feed into broader conversations about the use of technology in our society, which I think is an important one at the moment, and lesser conversations (for me) such as who plays in which sporting competitions.
Thanks, I found those interesting and very easy to agree with. (Although, regardless of any laws, it seems likely to me that Mack Beggs shouldn't be competing against girls because the testosterone he's taking should be a drug offence.)
The media only report on stories like the cyclist genocide one.
If there is a more sensible trans group, it has zero mainstream profile.
On the point of people not claiming different gender to win things. Maybe not, but even if not yet they will. Lots of examples of people/teams trying to game disabled sport, Paralympics etc. Given that most Aussie sportsmen would sell their mother if it guaranteed a win, it's only a matter of time.
Only just occurred to me that this is (perhaps obviously for sport) a male to female issue. Can't say I've seen anything on women wanting to play on men's competition, go into a male prison etc
The young wrestler in noodle's first link above.
