The managerial merry-go-round

Another way to look at it is find an actual pre-Southgate England line up that you would swap for the one that beat the Netherlands, or against Denmark/Ukraine in the last Euros or whatever.

I must have missed the trophies we've lifted.

This is just Sportsbible-level style Facebook clickbait. Complete rubbish just to get engagement.

It isn't though is it, because it underlies a serious discussion about whether Southgate is as really so much better than any other England manager and whether he deserves to stay on for another 5 or whatever years?

There’s a definite argument that Sven’s team - that golden generation bollox - was much better. If you think about Seaman, Neville, Ferdinand, Campbell, Cole, Beckham, Lampard, Gerrard, Scholes, Rooney, Owen which was pretty much it I think, that’s a way better eleven ‘on paper’ than what we have now. The Euro 96 team was also a really good, well balanced team with quality throughout.
They all underachieved and this current lot are overachieving. Even more so when you consider that in the last euros our central midfield was Kalvin Phillips and a very young Declan Rice, one of our centre halves was Harry maguire, Mason Mount was our attacking threat and our right wing was Saka who was barely out of nappies, it’s pretty unbelievable that we even got close to the final.

Ok, fair points.

Recency bias is real.

Maybe. But you also missed the serial failure to get out of our group (or even qualify in the first place) that so often characterised the period between c.1972 & 2014. With only very occasional outliers.

I agree with both viewpoints really.

We're doing much better than recent history ... Which is nice .... But unless we win something it's still all a bit meh.

I do think that we've had an excellent set of players over the last 5-8 years, they're great now too, and another manager would likely have won something with them by now / this tournament.

There's loads of holes in my points above. I'm not saying it's totally coherent. ;-)

If we could swap Southgate for an elite manager, then I'd probably do it but Sven and Capello were elite and they did nothing in comparison.

Two thirds of England's all time finals and half of our semi finals. He's not done badly, really.

He hasn't. But I'm now looking for us to take the next step, and I'm not sure he's the guy.

Something worth recognising is not just that this England squad is as good as any we’ve had before, it’s also a factor that a) the powerhouses of international football are not as comparatively strong as they were before and b) we’ve had 3 very favourable runs out of the last 4 competitions.

Given that the top sides aren’t clear of England in ability (as they were before) - France, Germany even Spain are all weaker than in previous tournaments - outside of Europe Brazil and Argentina are also both weaker. We’ve had some very beneficial draws in the competitions, we’re doing about average. A better manager would be winning stuff.

As soon as we encounter a side anywhere above average (ie on our level) that can play the ball about midfield, we come unstuck. Pirlo (past his prime) at the last Euros and Modric (32) in 2018 ran the show against an England with no plan B from Gareth beyond huff and puff. On both occasions we had the better side on the field but a worse team.

This is manager, not players. Southgate is a lower level Prem manager at best. Maybe even a Champ manager. Great man manager, but not great in his tactical acumen.

I hope we win tomorrow, but it’ll be in spite of Southgate, not because of. He’s been a lucky manager with draws, but gets shown up when the chips are down.

I’d be happy with a win, then give him a knighthood and he can go and count the £5m a year he’s been banking for years and be remembered fondly.

Personally though, I think we’ll lose the game in midfield tomorrow. Spain dominate possession there and stifle us. Then next week Gareth signs a new 2 yr deal.

Tricky has an embolism when Kane plays almost the full game and has 0 touches. Watkins comes on in the 94th minute along with Palmer and we look fucking fantastic for 3 mins before the final whistle blows and we lose 1-0.

We've had beneficial draws partly because we've pissed qualifying and, generally, the groups.

Not a fair comparison for me, much easier now with expanded competitions. The Euros used to be 8 teams now 24 and third place can get out the group, so I don't buy the whole he's done so much better argument.

Some merit in fact we have got to a semi and two finals I'll give you.

Charlton say 'hi'.

Good comparison Sean.