Recruitment/Development watch.

tricky
19 Dec 2023
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    Board
    22 Dec 2023, 1:15 p.m.
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    If there's something that the last few years in broken propoganda led britain has taught us, it's that if you don't tell them, nobody else is doing, and they wont know.

    It's sort of a public service.

    There's not a debate really...you think that Cooper demonstrated multiple periods of sub-optimal performance, and I think in context that's an idiotic position to hold. Presumably by idiots who the world has turned into febrile illogical reactionaries, with all the nuance and understanding of a furiously wanking chimp. I would argue that you don't have to fall in line.

    Now. On mature reflection. With what he had at his disposal, and in the context of where he was deploying his trade, and the experience of other teams around him mostly with superior resources (Leicester, Leeds, etc), how many actually demonstrably sub-optimal spells do you really think that he had?

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    Squad
    22 Dec 2023, 1:23 p.m.
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    I saw someone on SM say they were really concerned that Nuno wouldn’t bring through more talent like Ryan Yates.

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    Squad
    22 Dec 2023, 1:58 p.m.
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    Bit reductive. Not sure he held anyone back. Which outstanding talents do you think he has ignored?

    And I think we do know that he and his staff held an interest in the academy. If Nuno never watched an academy game in all that time at Wolves, that's quite different to no-one coming through on his watch (MGW an example of a player who maybe didn't get too many opportunities, as compared to, say, Ateef Konaté).

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    Squad
    22 Dec 2023, 2:02 p.m.
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    There is no-one remotely near within the club as far as I can see (Bott and Abbott have potential, but are very young and need some experience out on loan, I like McDonnell, but he is a bit older and has had no loan experience (I'm hoping he goes out somewhere in L1 in Jan)).
    And the youngsters currently out on loan aren't exactly tearing it up (Dale Taylor is the only one playing regularly, but he's not scoring many (I'd still have him as a bench option at Forest at present while Taiwo's out)).

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    Squad
    22 Dec 2023, 2:23 p.m.
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    My mature reflection is that you seem to get more patronising and intolerant with every passing day. Why I should dignify any of that with a response is frankly beyond me. Even if meant in jest, it’s fairly distasteful and pretty disrespectful.

    Much as I am very grateful for everything you do for this community, I don't really feel the need to indulge you when you take this kind of approach. That is as polite as I can be.

    So let’s just agree to disagree on this point and I will leave you to pontificate.

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    Board
    22 Dec 2023, 2:38 p.m.
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    Okay. So If you have nothing to say about it, I'm going to have to assume that you stand by that. So really what we are saying is that any manager whose club is not near the top of the form table (and there will always be some...that's how it works) is operating sub-optimally, irrespective of context, and should ultimately expect the sack if it ever happens again?

    I just find that view a manifestation of absolute madness.

    I'm open to other arguments.

    Personally I find it completely patronising to pontificate something nonsensical and fail to justify it in any way. 'Yeah, the world is flat, just get on with it'. No thanks, put up, or get some back princess.

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    Squad
    22 Dec 2023, 2:42 p.m.
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    Idiots.

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    Squad
    22 Dec 2023, 3:10 p.m.
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    Ok, I will try to maintain civility as you appear utterly incapable of doing so. And you’re not open to other arguments though are you? You just rage and insult which doesn’t exactly encourage an interaction. Then when someone disengages because you are so obnoxious, you seem to think it somehow vindicates your position.

    And it also seems you are quite capable of wilfully misinterpreting the point I made and trickysplaining something I did not say. At no point did I mention the form table, so your view on that is immaterial. I didn’t say Cooper was operating suboptimally, I said the outcomes were.

    (Did Cooper do the very best he could with the resources available in the circumstances last season in those two long spells without a win? Quite possibly. Was the outcome suboptimal? Based on points accrued and league position, for two long spells, quite probably)

    Did he deserve a third spell when the outcome was again suboptimal, despite him doing what you perceive to be his best? You think he did. The decision maker did not. Rage all you like; I didn’t fire him. But I can understand why he was.

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    Board
    22 Dec 2023, 3:29 p.m.
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    It seems ingrained in you that sub-optimal is a thing in regard to Cooper, and needs to dictate these sort of outcomes.

    There are not many people across the world of football - participants and objective observers, who think that Cooper performed sub-optimally at forest....and I don't believe for a moment that he was sacked for that reason. Whatever they might have briefed. I'm pretty sure the owner was happy to get rid of him at a point that he'd had time to prepare the grounds, which was a perfectly understandable set of results in the context (and no doubt aided by the pressure and tensions brought to bear on the manager by decision makers at the club).

    Having performed two footballing miracles, embracing the history and background of the club, and engaging the local fans sending the message that it was all about him and the players relationship with them, he had become a massive irritant to the owner. Having sold the club to a foreign billionaire, the game to global fans and players, and global money operations, nobody should be under the misapprehension that it's all about football. It's most likely about putting in place principles that operate to the business model of the owner, and point all credit in the direction that it is merited. Not to this history, fans, city of nottingham crap.

    As a country we stood by and let money take away long built community assets. Taking their history and status, and using it to push other agendas, not the betterment of football. I don't want to be emotionally tethered to what it has become, and I'm not...but it's extremely dispiriting to watch people swallow the nonsense peddled in service to what they do with it.

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    Squad
    22 Dec 2023, 3:33 p.m.
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    Squad
    22 Dec 2023, 4:08 p.m.
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    Max Kilman
    Morgan Gibbs-White
    Luke Cundle
    Ruben Vinagre

    All given their senior debut by Nuno at Wolves. So it seems a little uneven to say that Cooper not blooding young players is fine because there weren't any good enough, but Nuno only doing so with four players in his time at Wolves is evidence that he was ignoring the youth system.

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    Squad
    22 Dec 2023, 4:11 p.m.
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    I'm pretty sure all the same sort of stuff was said when Hughton got sacked, but if you gloss over the fact that we spent the best part of £300m on players under Cooper's reign you do get a skewed view of things.

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    Board
    22 Dec 2023, 4:22 p.m.
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    The counter argument to that is surely that previous regimes had put in place youth development, such that there were players good enough to join the first team squad. What happened after? Is showing no interest in players outside your first team squad the optimal way to develop prospects?

    There's going to be a lot of factors that determine the players coming through, including that sometimes there's just none good enough. Stats are not really your friend here, and never have been with youth development. I'm not an expert, but you would have thought that a bit of occasional interest and encouragement would do more good than harm?

    I don't think success at youth development can be determined by ascribing a numerical value to one minor participant.

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    Squad
    22 Dec 2023, 4:29 p.m.
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    Ruben Vinagre, loaned from Monaco before signing permanently? That Ruben Vinagre?!

    It's not "fine" that Cooper didn't blood youngsters, but the circumstances were a bit different. Nuno had a small, tight squad at Wolves, so (you would think) the opportunities to blood youngsters would be more than at a club that signed 20+ senior players last summer, and another 13 this.

    It's also fine, by the way, if Nuno doesn't blood youngsters this season. It hardly seems like the best time. But if he pays no attention to the Academy which we spend a lot of money on and are rightfully proud of, that seems like more of a problem.

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    Squad
    22 Dec 2023, 4:37 p.m.
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    I agree, but the path from the Academy to the first team is rarely direct in the Premier League - the majority of players will spend some time on loan before getting serious consideration for the first team squad. That Nuno gave four players their senior debut while Wolves were in the Premier League would suggest that he doesn't ignore the Academy at all - maybe he's willing to trust the judgement of his coaching staff to determine who is ready and who isn't, rather than spending time standing on the Academy touchlines.

    Again, like it or not this is an acquisition league and good Academies are revenue generation engines that create the occasional player good enough for the first team. It's a different business model in the Premier League and while I recognise that it isn't everybody's preference for what Forest should look like, it's how the game works. Every now and then you might get lucky and turn up an Evan Ferguson, but it's not a model that you can or should rely on for any kind of long term success.

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    Squad
    22 Dec 2023, 4:38 p.m.
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    Yes. With no senior appearances prior to joining Wolves, for Monaco or anyone else.