It might be interesting to look at who we have recruited, or developed...and which 'ship sides (let's say match day squads), they could get into. There's a lot spoken about how good the squad is. Let's quantify it. On the basis of what we have seen from them so far, who do we think gets into another EPL side? At what level (someone might get into the pale arse side, for example, but not the lilypond one)? We can look at their trajectory over time as well.
19 Dec 2023
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I'm generally excluding assessments for the bottom three...most of our players could get a gig in one of their squads. On account of them being so fundamentally flawed, and likely not at the level for long. Unless we are in the process of getting someone to hold our beer.
The keepers? Maybe as backups. Don't see a current team that would be looking to swap their keeper for one of ours.
Defence: Omobamidele, clearly bought for development. Who knows? Boly, Felipe, Aurier - past the point where an elite club is going to be interested. Aina, Neco, Murillo - all possible from a development perspective with the later clearly having the most impressive trajectory at present...but I don't see him in many match day squads at his current experience/mistake level. Toffolo has been very impressive. I could see him definitely going to a mid table team...even if only as a second choice. Montiel is a bit of a mystery to me...I don't see how he's been where he has.... Niakhate definitely has potential around match day squads in the bottom half of the table, could well train on. Worrall, probably around the promoted club/championship level.
Midfield: Santos, clearly bought for development. Who knows? Aguilera, I have no idea about him, but I doubt anyone is interested at this stage. Kouyate solid old head, can't run, can't kick - nobody else is interested at this stage of his career. Dominguez - I have concerns about his physicality at the level. Mangala - decent physique, good skill level, signs of game management, would get takers but probably not top half. Danilo, loads of ability...light on physique and holding the level, struggled this year..but a player in there, mid table squad player for now at most. Yatesy can run, can't kick, can shitehouse - promoted club/bottom half squad player. Sangare, haas the physical attribues, but not reached the level yet. One that would be taken on by others I think if he shows signs of physically reaching the level - even up to brighton sort of standard. MGW brilliant at taking the ball on at pace, kicking on the move...somewhat profligate with retention, but creates - looks like a mid-table squad player currently.Forwards: CHO, good physique, good on the ball, not moving well but undoubtedly bought with the prospect that he might rehabilitate, bottom half squad player at the moment. Wood & Origi, both shown previous great form, both on the slide, promoted clubs might have a dabble. Elanga, can run, kicking in the random football generator mode, could be a mid-table impact squad player. Taiwo has all the attributes to be a handfull at pace, not the greatest at kicking, struggles to stay fit for the level - mid-table squad player with the ability to train on.
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I agree with most of that. It's early days for Toffolo but I have also been impressed. He has been reminding me a bit of Leighton Baines.
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I mean it's fine. You don't have to have an opinion about the squad. But you don't get to have any credibility when you say something like 'manager x should be doing so much better with this squad'.
You cant play both sides of cliché bingo without consequence.
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Who are you talking to?
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Anyone not making an assessment of the squad.
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No? I imagine that analysis of how the squad is really amazing takes a bit of time to get just right.
I'm tingling in anticipation.
Perhaps looking up the high level players Nuno got to work with at championship level, as over several years they built a squad at wolves capable of establishing after promotion, might highlight the similarities?
This hastily chucked together bunch of superstars should be easy to whip into shape in half a season, in comparison. Eh?
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You appear to aiming this question at anyone who has said 'manager x should be doing so much better with this squad', so you should probably wait for one of them to answer it.
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Personally, I didn't want Cooper sacked. I wanted Cooper to do better with what he had, because I reckon the squad is better suited to a different style of play, not least because our goalies are not as good and Taiwo is injured again.
A clean break might be good for several of the players. Not that they were necessarily fancy-dans or primadonnas, more that the style didn't suit them, or thje spaces available, or the role. It's frustrating that I don't really know what style might be described as Cooperball after 2 years. -
Are there any golf jokes in it?
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That's the one criticism I have of him. Especially when you see the likes of that chap at Ipswich and the new Leicester manager getting them playing really nice football.
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No. I'm addressing it at those who expressed an opinion on the quality of the squad. It would be handy to see what their assessment was, and now is.
That was definitely used as a benchmark for what the previous coach should have been doing with them, and what the next coach will be doing with them will loom on the horizon soon enough. Let's get ahead of it.
Rather than just talk unsubstantiated bollocks down the line, I thought it might be useful to approach it with some degree of rigour. Not suddenly putting forward the suggestion that the squad should be challenging for Europe, so we need to sack the manager for only getting to top half. Which is the sort of toss I've seen said in some quarters (not here).
So to be fair to the incoming coach, lets have actual opinions of where the squad is, and track how we think it develops. Rather than just make up stuff out of nowhere, down the line, as a stick to beat someone* with.
* players, coach, staff, recruitment team, owner, medical staff
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We definitely have a much better squad than Luton, Burnley and Sheffield United. Beyond that it's hard to say as I do think we have a number of players who haven't performed to the level they may be able to.
Awoniyi, Murillo, MGW, Sangare if and when he adjusts, Danilo, Dominguez, Niakhate, Elanga are all talented and with the right management could be capable of being players who could get regular football at top half clubs. So that isn't a bad nucleus. Yates has something. Add a competent keeper and striker to that and it isn't so bad. The rest, certainly are physically up to the level on the whole but have questions.
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Honestly, I don't know how good the individual members of this squad are. Here's what I do think: being a successful Premier League team has nothing to do with developing players, and everything to do with acquiring them and making them play together in a way designed to achieve successful outcomes (wins, and attractive football that people want to pay to watch, in that order). If you grow or find a gem and they get better in the time they're with you, that's great. But it's not required at all, because in order to cross the line onto the field of play in the Premier League you have to already be an exceptional professional footballer, fully rounded, and able to stand your own against some of the best in the world. So for starters, I reject the premise of development.
We have had a bloody good go at doing the acquiring thing, I think most would agree to excess. We obviously needed to sign a lot of players last season and it largely worked, because we still had a strong dressing room built around a core of players who knew each other and who knew what their job was - stay tight, don't concede, soak up the pressure, spring Brennan. This season the goals were obviously different, more recruitment was done, and outside of Murillo it has largely failed to provide an improvement - in fact, it's not hard to argue that the football is worse this season than it was last year.
I do disagree with your assessment methodology of players, because what we have seen is what Steve Cooper has been able to get out of them. I don't really know if this is as good a Premier League footballer as Sangare, Dominguez, Vlachodimos, Turner, Montiel, Elanga, Hudson-Odoi or Origi can be, but I suspect that given previous performances at other clubs in the world's best leagues, they can all be much better than they have been at Forest. I definitely know that Worrall, Gibbs-White and Aurier can be, because I've seen them all be much better than this in the Premier League for Forest. So the essential premise of your original post, that the players aren't good enough to produce better results than this, doesn't ring true for me.
Which brings us then to the actual point you're trying to make, which is that you disagree with any argument that Manager X can produce better outcomes with the same group of players than Steve Cooper has. I would tell you that I don't know if NES can, I don't know if Lopetegui would have, I don't know if Glasner would have. I do believe that the outcomes we have seen are the result at least in large part of the management team getting things wrong, because I don't accept that all of the new players I listed and all the existing players I listed are all somehow failing to adjust to "this level" at the same time despite Cooper doing an exemplary job of everything required to enable them to do so. I do believe that it therefore makes sense to see if another manager can generate improved outcomes with a fresh set of eyes, ideas and principles, because at almost halfway through the season I have not seen any signs of Cooper getting things moving in the right direction.
Only time will tell if I'm right, or not. And even if NES does precipitate a turn around in outcomes, you might make the argument that it's predicated on the groundwork that Cooper and his team had already laid and that Cooper would have achieved the same, and I wouldn't be able to argue because you might well be right.
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Definite? Brilliant. You sound like an expert. Tell me in what ways, and how. That Luton striker fella looks pretty good to me, and I've always been a fan of Barclay who has been playing out of his skin. Lots of players who have experience of playing together, and some big strong lads. An expert to compare squads would be really useful.
How many of those players are top half clubs taking right now, with current experience and what they have shown at the level to date?
It's like counting calories. If you pretend to yourself that what you eat has less than it really has, you run the danger of remaining fat, and concluding that calorie controlled diets don't work. But really it's just you that can't do numbers properly.
If you don't make objectively coherent assessments to start with you will, of course, get the wrong answers when you come to use your data.
Assess what they are. Not what you rosetinthink for an imaginary future outcome. Then we can track how they develop.
Like Toff. Definitely gone from championship fallback, to credible left sided defender. Aurier... looks headed the other way.
The notion that Dominguez is a regular top half player on his 'ship career so far is laughable. Say what you see. Don't make shit up.
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So we’re settling on NES?
If he wins a few in a row will he be Super NES?
I’ll get me Super Mario coat…
