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The Daily Cut and Thrust / Re: The Real Mundane Moments not Ingos sh!t Copy
Last post by karlmark -
It's not about removing the profit motive from everything, I have never said that. What I will say is that the market cannot reliably supply electricity as required for a basic standard of living. The investment required for producing electricity on the scale required for life is just something that the market cannot handle. The upfront investment is overwhelming, the returns are so distant in the future and the need for excess capacity are completely inconsistent with any model of economic theory.

Electricity isn't something that can be left to market forces because it cannot respond quickly enough, and the profit motive is not readily apparent unless you are Elon Musk. The investment required to make electricity production sustainable simply cannot be left to private enterprise.

The economic model of Public Goods of which you speak is outdated and broken, belonging to a time before railways and industrialisation. No economic model can come close to covering the externalities involved with electricity production. The private sector simply doesn't have the correct motive to supply what is a basic human need.
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The Daily Cut and Thrust / Re: The Real Mundane Moments not Ingos sh!t Copy
Last post by noodlé -
Quote from: karlmark on
Yes, yes and yes. I do want something as important as electricity to be planned for and provided as a public good. It's essential for life as we know it and nobody should make a profit from that.

As a point of order, a 'public good' is a defined term in economics, and electricity isn't one.

Pedantry aside, if you're more interested in preventing someone from making a profit than you are the the actual service delivered then you are a blind ideologue. Just as the idea that the profit motive guarantees a better outcome than public service is bollocks, so too is the idea that profit is only ever an add-on cost to what a non-profit entity would deliver. Despite starting this kerfuffle with a gripe about service, every utterance since has indicated you don't care about service at all - only that the ownership model of the industry is in line with your ideals.

And it's a ludicrous position anyway. Absent the total overthrow of capitalism and private ownership of anything, you can't strip profit out of electricity supply. Even if the government provides it 'at cost' at a retail level, there are the profits generated at all those cost input levels.. unless, of course, you want to nationalize the entire supply chain as well. And, y'know, you're going to have to pay everyone working for this enterprise a fair and equal living wage, lest some of them be seen to profit from their labor, right?

So yeah. As fun as this has been... you're giving me nowt.
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The Daily Cut and Thrust / Re: The Real Mundane Moments not Ingos sh!t Copy
Last post by noodlé -
Bullcrap. The provision of electricity is complex and capital intensive and so to work on a national scale it needs to be done by some kind of collective endeavor which is, ideally, answerable to the public (as consumer) in some functional manner. There are different ways of accomplishing this, with benefits and drawbacks of each. Ideally the one that is most beneficial to the populace will be chosen.. that is, the one that provides the most reliable electricity and related services, the most economically, and aligned with related public goals (such as sustainable generation and all that jazz).

I am not confident enough in my understanding of these matters to say which is the best and, not that it ought to matter anyway, I don't have a particular political preference for public or private... I have thought about that issue a great deal (in general, not especially in respect of electricity) and I think that most things where the answer isn't obvious (courts and police should be public, trainers and mobile phones should be private) are in a big grey puddle where 'it depends' and 'it's complicated'. (And yes, water privatization in the UK is a total sham which almost certainly should be undone).

You, on the other hand, seem so confident in your view that it, apparently, needs no argument.. despite the fact that the people served by the industry, and those like it, have gone nowhere near electing a government contemplating changing things your way. That rather suggests that some kind of argument *is* needed, doesn't it? Forget the ideology, where is the practical case for change?

You want the government to forcibly acquire the assets of private entities and take over an essential service, you want it to take over all strategic planning for generation, do all the maintenance, control the pricing, control the consumer interface... all whilst being openly dismissive of the abilities and motivations of the very people you propose to put in charge of this. TBH, I have zero love for the utility conglomerates and their price gouging and financial engineering.. but unless you can explain why your way is better for the public, I'm inclined to leave the broad structure alone and try to improve matters in different ways.
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The Daily Cut and Thrust / Re: The Film Thread
Last post by Russ -
Prey is meh. Took an already tired, thin and overdone premise, and did nothing new or interesting with it. Stylish at times, but completely pointless and unengaging.
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The Daily Cut and Thrust / Re: The Real Mundane Moments not Ingos sh!t Copy
Last post by noodlé -
Quote from: karlmark on
I have tried that as you well know. I've stood for election as a candidate to represent my beliefs and explain to people how I feel. I sit on a Parish Council because I care too much about other people.
I do f*cking try things and none of it has worked because people like you will always come back with Whataboutery. The response is always the same: meh.

Yes I do well know. But the failure of your preferred way of doing things to gain traction isn't on me and this isn't whataboutery. This is pointing out a very obvious flaw in the system you are proposing, a flaw which means I don't think that this particular tenet of your belief system is one I am going to give my attention to.

My passions and priorities, in a political sense, are things like welfare and taxation reform.. I have no desire at all to seek office or get close to those who do, but I vote my beliefs, follow the relevant public discourse, and explain them to people whenever they will let me. I think that there are tangible gains to society achievable under the politicians and parties that we have by addressing issues in these areas I focus on. I'm sorry if my having differing priorities offends you but, to be frank, the instant pivot to ad hominem there makes it sound kinda like you don't have much to say on why what you are advocating for would, in the actual world, be a demonstrable improvement. Because you do generally know what you are talking about, and you advocate eloquently when you have a case to make. Here... kinda just seems like 'private = bad and if you ask questions you're a tory', which is not the most illuminating take.
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The Daily Cut and Thrust / Re: The Real Mundane Moments not Ingos sh!t Copy
Last post by karlmark -
Quote from: noodlé on
Like food?

Anyway. I said I wasn’t going to argue the politics. I genuinely don’t have a strong view either way. The current structure is a sh!tshow. But citing a power cut as grounds for your point is nonsense. People who advocate for essential services to be publicly owned and publicly run also seem to spend an awful lot of energy complaining about the essential services that actually are publicly owned and publicly run. So go find a way to elect and appoint public servants capable of doing the job you think they should have, and then I am with you.  Until then… it’s idiots and grifters on both sides so, y’know, meh.

I have tried that as you well know. I've stood for election as a candidate to represent my beliefs and explain to people how I feel. I sit on a Parish Council because I care too much about other people.
I do f*cking try things and none of it has worked because people like you will always come back with Whataboutery. The response is always the same: meh.
9
The Daily Cut and Thrust / Re: The Real Mundane Moments not Ingos sh!t Copy
Last post by noodlé -
Quote from: karlmark on
Utter bollocks. Electricity is truly essential in so many ways and is a fundamental human right. Why should anyone be allowed to profit from it?

Like food?

Anyway. I said I wasn’t going to argue the politics. I genuinely don’t have a strong view either way. The current structure is a sh!tshow. But citing a power cut as grounds for your point is nonsense. People who advocate for essential services to be publicly owned and publicly run also seem to spend an awful lot of energy complaining about the essential services that actually are publicly owned and publicly run. So go find a way to elect and appoint public servants capable of doing the job you think they should have, and then I am with you.  Until then… it’s idiots and grifters on both sides so, y’know, meh.